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Author Topic: Billy Williams contract  (Read 376 times)

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Offline Claybor

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Billy Williams contract
« on: June 09, 2017, 08:30:29 AM »
We need to put some controls on contracts. I do not believe this contract is in the spirit of the game. I am sure there will be arguments disagreeing with me, and you are welcome to them, but nothings going to change my mind. This is wrong.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 08:31:52 AM by Claybor »

Offline Berkshire_JJ

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2017, 04:28:28 PM »
I don't personally have an issue with the contract because it's well within the rules as they are set.

That being said, I agree that the league financials should be adjusted to keep FA spending in check. I made what I thought was a pretty compelling case last offseason to reduce the amount of cash that could be carried over from season to season - I still believe it's worth pursuing. I'll bump that thread for continued discussion.

Offline Ajax

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2017, 09:54:06 PM »
Sound logic should be able to change any reasonable persons mind.  that said I'm open to changing rules to whatever makes people enjoy the game

For the sake of fairness we just need to ensure at a minimum those rules don't allow signing players with contracts that never have to be paid ie. ballooning salaries under team option years at the end of the contract (the opposite of Billy Williams salary where UP fully paid through downpayment)

Offline Ajax

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2017, 10:17:20 PM »
For the sake of discussion, let's explore the impact to a more "balanced" contract.  Presumably the objectors would have been more happy with this breakdown:

400-350-350-225-225-225(option)-225(option) = $2M
vs. current
1000-500-100-100-100-100(option)-100(option) = $2M

If Billy is kept 5 years, then cut before option years the difference is:
current total $1.8M paid vs. "balanced" total $1.55M paid.
ie.  If he turns out to suck I pay less with "balanced"

Note also, with the balanced UP would have an additional $600K cash on hand right now and another $150K next year to buy other players or save it to pay cut costs on Billy in the future.

If all 7 years are completed, the expenditure is exactly the same

If the player were cut early, after 3 years say...
Total paid $1.8 current vs. balanced $1.55M.  The lump sum due after 3 years to pay for it would be $200K current vs $450K "balanced" but remember UP has an extra $750K cash on hand from the reduced salary years 1 and 2, so paying $250k more is a breeze.

Conclusion:
Only UP is losing out from the current imbalanced contract.  I'm assuming its only a couple players that don't agree but if consensus is balanced is better, I'm open to switching to the more balanced contract above, increasing UP's coffers by $600K this year and another $150K next year so we can return to immediate "buyer" status. 

I genuinely thought I was simplifying the finance of it all by spending cash on hand at UPs expense but if its upsetting a majority of players I'm open to recouping cash with a more balanced contract in the interest of keeping everyone having fun.  Just consider me shocked that anyone wants that outcome. 

« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 10:43:09 PM by Ajax »

Offline Claybor

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2017, 08:39:51 AM »
Bottom line.


I've been playing ootp online since 2003 and no league I am in or have ever been in wouldn't have made changes to stop this kind of thing.


Was it within the rules; yes. Was it in the spirit of the game; no.


Umm, don't want that outcome. You were within the rules. I just think it should be fixed before next time.


This offer likely got you the player though. (the issue)


« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 08:42:43 AM by Claybor »

Offline Ajax

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2017, 11:54:28 AM »
I was determined to hire him one way or the other.  I had by far the most cash and budget room combined to offer after years of very frugal spending.

My frustration has been losing players despite that the past few seasons until I understood I was one of the few feeling bound by the budget line. I'd had enough with getting outbid by teams that were well in the red already.

I do think it will be more fun/less contentious for all if we clearly understand what can and can't be offered, both salary and bonus structures as well as limits on being in the red.  To me the later is the bigger issue because it's harder to get someone to take over abandoned teams in the red. 


Offline RubixCube

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2017, 01:08:13 PM »
As a new owner I have had troubel getting a line on what to offer a free agent as free agenst are gettig far more money than any of my top players which I found odd.  I see now there are inflationary issues. 

I don't see wnytihng wrong with the contract as it was quite creative and as the team is spending money tehy have that is not an issue.  People being able to spend big while not having teh cash is the problem.  you shouldn't be able to continually operate at a loss.  I don't know how you would monitor it but surely a team that is continually in the red shoule be banned form free agent spending till tehy sort teh finances out. From what I can see part of this league is about financial control which makes it get people to very interesting in my opionion. 

As for trying to take teams on that are in the red, perhaps when a new owner takes on a team they wipe out the debt.  This is what would happen with a normal takeover so not that far fetched.

I have only been involved for two seconds so I may be off thr mark but it is just waht I have observed.  Fiscal repsonsibility should be rewarded and vice versa.

Offline Claybor

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2017, 10:22:55 AM »
Apparently I am the only one (in this league) that thinks this contract is wrong so I will just step back, but this seems to mean anything goes. I have a few things I've seen over the years (like the crazy front and back loaded contracts) that I guess I can go ahead and use in the future.


Most leagues I have been in (when it became necessary) don't allow and single years salaries to be (10%/20%/25%) more or less then the previous years. I think most of those leagues also put cash caps in place, but our league is a little different being corporations and all, so I guess it changes some parameters.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 10:27:39 AM by Claybor »

Offline Ajax

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2017, 11:35:00 AM »
I'm all for adding clarification for rules, even constricting some as you suggest as long as we keep it simple enough.    Although I would still prefer that annual budgets be enforced, I feel far less frustrated by the offseason now that I understand league policy and feel like we are all playing by the same rules. 

I do think "spirit" of the game for contracts is too subjective and we should focus on quantifiable rules instead for fairness.    This contract was done with all intent of integrity and fairness to the game or I wouldn't have offered it.   Some food for thought on spirit with current MLB contracts:

Stanton 13yr/$325M. 1st year $6M   Highest year $32M
Kershaw 7yr/$215M. 1st year $4M. Highest $33M
Sherzer 7yr/$210M of which $50M was signing bonus

Williams' signing bonus % was bigger than Sherzer's but not by orders of magnitude.   Voluntary prepaying is less common in all financial transactions because current dollars are worth more than future dollars, not because it's unethical.  No one would call it unfair if you prepaid your cable bill for the full 3yr contract period, you just probably won't because your not obligated

That said I think we should get a better pulse of everyone's perceptions especially given multiple new owners.  This contract aside the Several Proposals thread lists some good options for discussion.



« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 12:22:12 PM by Ajax »

Offline Ajax

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2017, 11:46:28 AM »
Our current rule just limits option years to no more than 125% of any one year.   So we can backend load as long as those years are guaranteed.  No front end limiting currently.  Maybe that's insufficient?

We do need to keep our bonuses fair as well.   Toronto's $125k contract  bonus to A Rod if he won division series MVP was highly questionable given that there was no division series MVP.  ;)
http://m.mlb.com/cutfour/2016/04/29/172405266/nine-strange-mlb-contracts

LEAGUE RULES:

-Incentives that can be offered include At Bats, MVP, Innings Pitched, and Cy Young � with the following limits to keep in mind:
-you are only permitted to offer 50% of the guaranteed amount of the contract as incentive. The amount is determined by establishing what the average annual contract's salary is. In other words, if you offer a player a $300,000, you could offer a maximum of an additional $150,000 in total performance bonuses (per season). If this rule is violated, you will be required to raise the guaranteed salary to equal the incentives.
-Option Years: You may include option years in your contract offers, the final year may be no more than 125% of any previous season (e.g. if a player earns no more than $1 million in any given season, his option year may be no more than $1.25 million).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 12:28:35 PM by Ajax »

Offline HawkHunter

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2017, 01:54:49 PM »
Claybor...I was thinking the same thing about a couple of weeks ago when I got into a healthy discussion with Ajax and Jazz through the Shoutbox. I could have used some of your support defending my argument back then!

Offline Claybor

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2017, 08:06:23 PM »
Sorry Hawk. It's been a poor last 3-4 weeks and my participation has been hit or miss.


There are no signing bonuses in ootp. It's not the same thing.


I have always said that to compare a game in which cash is meaningless to reality in which it is everything to nearly everybody can not work, at least not in my opinion.


If my earlier comments seemed a bit harsh, I do apologize.  This as been a good discussion from all sides, and I wish I had not missed the earlier discussion, that would have been better timing.


Offline HawkHunter

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 09:38:32 AM »
No worries at all Claybor. I was just mentioning the fact that I felt the same way once I saw the contract. I guess I was more upset losing out on him as I was in the running for the player's services for a while.

In Ajax defense, he did everything right according to our rules for contracts. I had to reread our league rules after our discussion. He had the money to spend on him and decided to use most of it up front in the player's first year. I do the same, just not as drastic.

Offline Ajax

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 11:54:27 AM »
I think We need to address all these contract limitation concerns so we get on the same page before next offseason.  Maybe a surveymonkey poll to get opinions?

I really don't mind more limitations if it makes it fun.  What I don't want is to feel bound to different rules than the actual league rules.  Like the budgets example, I really did feel better after the rule clarified and I stopped interpreting other teams' spending as "cheating"

Offline Ajax

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Re: Billy Williams contract
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2017, 02:25:56 PM »
Since there's been no further discussion on this and IBM just executed a similar contract for McGee I will assume the league generally prefers the existing ruleset.   

 

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